Commons:Categories for discussion/2016/08/Category:Robert Falcon (given name)

Category:Robert Falcon (given name)

See also: Commons:Categories for discussion/2017/06/Category:Augustus Welby Northmore (given name).

See also: Commons:Categories for discussion/2017/01/Category:Andrade Corvo (surname).

See also: Commons:Categories for discussion/2022/12/Category:John Chessell (given name).

"Robert Falcon" is not a given name, it is two names. Given name categories should be for single names. This category is a result of using a template that doesn't work right the way it was used here. Auntof6 (talk) 16:20, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Then you have to delete all other Categories e.g. Category:Robert Fiske (given name)‎ or Category:Daniel Robert (given name)‎ or Category:Charles Robert (given name)‎. --NeverDoING (talk) 17:59, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, we would. Thanks for pointing out some of the others. I've suggested elsewhere that the template that assigned these categories be changed so that it doesn't assign multiple-name categories. That should help keep these from being created. --Auntof6 (talk) 19:23, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I'm having trouble understanding why this category exists at all. - Themightyquill (talk) 06:48, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I've deleted the category, but when trying to remove it from Category:Robert Falcon Scott, I realized it was a product of {{Mbyname}} which has no ability to handle middle names individually. @NeverDoING and JuTa: Can you help with this? Could we work it so that {{mbyname|Scott|Robert|Falcon}} puts the category in Category:Robert (given name) and in Category:Falcon (given name) but not in Category:Robert Falcon (given name) ? Thanks. - Themightyquill (talk) 12:42, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

 Done by 1) subst that {{Mbyname}} and then fix the cats manually. But I don't even understand the problem with the double-name-cat. His name is "Robert Falcon". Why cant be there a category for it? --JuTa 13:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@JuTa: We're looking for the template to assign the separate categories so that we don't have to manually fix each of the many cases. There are quite a few (I made a list not long ago), not only using the men by name template but also using the corresponding women by name template. Is it possible to change the templates so that the individual given names are categorized separately when coded the way they are now (separated by spaces)? IMO it would be fine if it categorized only the first name, but that hasn't been discussed.

If we fix this by adding a pipe between given names instead of a space, the template would need to look for more than two given name parameters. We have categories like Category:Hilary Rudolph Robert Blood and others with three. I don't know if there are any with more. It would be ideal if the template parsed by spaces instead of pipes (partly because people are now used to coding the template parameter with spaces), but in any case what we're looking for is not to have multi-part given name categories. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, the template should be substed anyhow. But in my eyes it is currently working fine. I dont see a reason why there shouldn't be categories like Category:Anna Maria (given name) or similar. The people have the name "Anna Maria Whatever", so why not categorizing them together to make it easier for people looking i.e. for a specific Anna Maria, but they dont remember the surname. Otherwise they have to browse through Category:Anna (given name) and/or Category:Maria (given name), which is much harder to find the one they looking for. --JuTa 17:58, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

PS @Auntof6: I plan to undo your and my edits and restore Category:Robert Falcon (given name). This discussion is not finished ot decided yet. And as long this is the case the category in question should exist. --JuTa 19:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@JuTa: The issue is that something like "Anna Maria" is not a given name; it is two separate given names. If you're looking for "Anna Maria", to use your example, you can find it alphabetically either in the given name category or among all categories. (In fact, the latter is better because not all categories for people are categorized by given name.) If you're looking for a given name that isn't the first name, having categories by multiple names doesn't help. So having the given name categories with more than one part doesn't actually do much either way.

I agree that the discussion isn't finished yet, but I don't recall making any edits related to it. What did you find that I changed? --Auntof6 (talk) 19:42, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Sorry Auntof6, that was somebody else and the speedy to the cat in question was by User:Themightyquill too.

All peoples categories are sorted by surname, not given name, that makes it hard to find a sprecific Anna Maria within more than 1000 other Marias.

You shouldnt find any double given names within Category:Male names or Category:Female names. They are all sub-cats of the single given names. Some weeks ago I checked and corrected that. Might be there are some new or I missed some.

And if I only remember the second given name, and not the first given name nor the surname of a person, which should IMHO rerely happen. I can go the the second given names cat and browse though it and its subcats. But in this case I normaly remember some other characteristics of that person like he was a french chemist or similar and can have a look into Category:Chemists from France if I can find him. --JuTa 19:57, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

PS: I now undeleted and "refilled" Category:Robert Falcon (given name). --JuTa 20:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

PPS:Most (unexpirienced) people will likely use the search engine and there the given name category is luckly one of the first hits. --JuTa 20:12, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I think a comparison with Anna Maria is not useful, as there are some given named combinations that people actually go by, such as Anna Maria (or Anne-Marie). The use of non-hypenated double given names is more common in some places (Scandinavian countries) than others. In the English speaking world, it's very uncommon for people, especially men, to introduce themselves as "Hello, I'm William John" even if their full name is William John Brown. It's highly unlikely that Category:Robert Falcon (given name) will ever have another sub-category Then we have the added problem of en:Spanish naming customs with two family names but only one is commonly used. Surely, Francisco Franco shouldn't be in Category:Franco Bahamonde (surname) but in Category:Franco (surname). Similarly, I don't see why it's useful to have a Category:George Herbert Walker for Category:George H. W. Bush.

I think you make valid points about someone looking for a specific Anna Maria or a specific Dag Erik, so I'm wary of Auntof6's suggestion of parsing the spaces (even if that would help fix what must be a large number of places where mbyear has been filled out like this). Parsing with a pipe would allow people to be specific about which names belong or don't belong together. That way, if Hilary Rudolph Robert Blood goes by Hilary Rudolf, that can be a separate category from Robert.

And please, JuTa, while I'm okay with you reverting my edits to the category and "refilling it" (with the one sub-category), I hope you're not insinuating that I incorrectly acted too soon when I deleted the category or . The discussion has been open since August. This should have been done a long time ago, and the only reason discussion here is still ongoing is because I pinged you here instead of asking about the template on its talk page.- Themightyquill (talk) 20:32, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, we have unfortunately a big backlog in open categories for discussion back to 2011/10. Maybe you need to be patient even in this case. PS: I will (of corse) not decide this case, because I am clearly a party here. regards. --JuTa 20:43, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

PS: The Lemma of Francos category is Category:Francisco Franco. So he will go under Franco and not Franco Bahamonde. The Lemma should alway the most common name for the specific person. And the given and surname cats should reflect the lemma of the persons category. If a cat is not running under the most common name of a person, the cat should be renamed anyhow. --JuTa 20:48, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Stale discussion. Definitely  Delete. Or later we have monsters like "Anna Maria Eva (given name)" or "Edith Maria Christina (given name)", not to mention billion variants of Anna Maria, Anna Marit, Anna Mari, Anna Mary, Anna Marii, Anna Margit, Anna Margaritha cases--Estopedist1 (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2021 (UTC)