Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Pyotr Otsup

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Files in Category:Pyotr Otsup

Not PD, author died in 1963.

• File:Lenin in office,16 October 1918.jpg
• File:Lenin leser Pravda.jpg
• File:Lenin reading Pravda.gif
• File:Lenin reading Pravda.jpg
• File:Lenin reads Pravda Newspaper.jpg
• File:Lenin CL.jpg
• File:Lenin portrait photo.jpg
• File:Lenin portrait.jpg
• File:Лідер Російської комуністичної партії (більшовиків), 1918.png

Sealle (talk) 05:37, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: If the information on the image's page is correct about the legal requirements in Russia, you need to provide more than the date of the author's death, you also need to provide when it was published and under what circumstances. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:21, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

• That information says:

This work is in the public domain in Russia according to article 1281 of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation, articles 5 and 6 of Law No. 231-FZ of the Russian Federation of December 18, 2006 (the Implementation Act for Book IV of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation). This usually means that one of the following conditions is fulfilled. The author of this work died:[1] (a) before January 1, 1942 or (b) between January 1, 1942 and January 1, 1946, did not work during the Great Patriotic War and did not participate in it. This work was originally published anonymously or under a pseudonym: (a) before January 1, 1943 and the name of the author did not become known during 50 years after publication, counted from January 1 of the year following the year of publication, or (b) between January 1, 1943 and January 1, 1946, and the name of the author did not become known during 70 years after publication, counted from January 1 of the year following the year of publication. This work is a film (a video fragment or a single shot from it): (a) which was first shown before January 1, 1943[2] or (b) which was created by legal entity between January 1, 1929 and January 1, 1946, provided that it was first shown in the stated period or was not shown until August 3, 1993. This work is an information report (including photo report), which was created by an employee of TASS, ROSTA, or KarelfinTAG as part of that person’s official duties between July 10, 1925[3] and January 1, 1946, provided that it was first released in the stated period or was not released until August 3, 1993. This work is in the public domain in the United States, because it was in the public domain in its home country (Russia) on the URAA date (January 1, 1996), and it wasn't re-published for 30 days following initial publications in the U.S. [1] If the author of this work was subjected to repression and rehabilitated posthumously, copyright term is counted from January 1 of the year following the year of rehabilitation. If the work was first published after the death (posthumous rehabilitation) of the author, copyright term is counted from January 1 of the year following the year of publication, provided that the work was published within 50 years after the death of the author who died (and was not posthumously rehabilitated) before January 1, 1943, or within 70 years after the death (posthumous rehabilitation) of the author who died (rehabilitated posthumously) between January 1, 1943 years before January 1, 1946. [2] Amateur films which were first shown on January 1, 1943 or later are subjects of points 1-2 of this template. [3] ROSTA reports created before July 10, 1925 are subjects of points 1-2 of this template.

So, specifically, we need to know if #3 has been satisfied. The picture File:Lenin portrait.jpg is clearly an official portrait, so it most likely was published around the time it was taken, in 1918. When it was published, was the photographer's name attached to it? I have no evidence one way or the other, but I highly doubt it. I expect that the work of the photographer was acknowledged only far after the fact. In any event, this deletion request of historically important images is precipitant, because the nominator seems to have done no research on the image's PD status except for the death-date of the photographer. I would suggest that the nominator withdraw this request until they have done the necessary research to show that the images are actually non-PD. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:29, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: In turn, I would suggest that you read the relevant policies – COM:EVID and COM:PCP to realize, who should do the necessary research. Nevertheless, take a look at these scanned pages from Lenin. Collection Of Photographs And Stills in two volumes, vol. 1, Russian edition, Moscow, 1970: page 66, page 73. Highlighted are the author's name and the date of first publication. Sealle (talk) 04:19, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not read Russian, but it looks to me as if the pictures were taken in 1918, and then published in book form in 1923. Are you claiming that the images were not used at all in the 5 years in between? I find that difficult to believe. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:45, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Further this and this would seem to indicate that those images are being used in a fashion that implies that they're PD. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:48, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Concerning File:Lenin reading Pravda.jpg, it's in the collection of the Library of Congress here, where it's labelled as "Created/Published: 1918 Oct 6", with no identification of the phoptographer. That would fulfill the requirement of #3, making it PD. I can't help but think that the same is true of all of these images, and that you're going to great lengths to remove these historic images from this repository. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:00, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Here's a crop of another image, from a 1946 calendar, with no identification of the photographer. Do you represent Pyotr Otsup in some way? Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:03, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Here is the same image from 1920, with no identification of the photographer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:05, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Ca. 1920, not 1920. So what? Sealle (talk) 11:50, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

It's clear to me that these photographs were used from when they were taken in 1918 until they were published in 1923 as publicity photos, without the photographer being identified. That makes them PD. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:08, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, hopefully you can read English and understand first of all that not being able to find an author does not mean that the work is anonymous. Further, it seems to me there's no reason to keep talking about was originally published anonymously ... and the name of the author did not become known during 50 years after publication option after you have gotten the source, proving that author's name became known at least in 1923. Sealle (talk) 11:50, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

One more example: File:Lenin reading Pravda.gif — see [1] and full version: [2], see signature in the lower-right corner: Фот. Оцуп (Phot. Otsup). Sealle (talk) 12:33, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I'm quite able to read English, but perhaps you have less ability in that area. Please carefully read the criteria for determining if an image in in the public domain in Russia, and you will see that if it was published anonymously before 1943, the image is in the public domain. I have shown that several of the images have indeed been published in 1918 without a photographer's name being identified, before they were published in book form in 1923 with the name of the photographer -- therefore they are indeed PD. Since I have clearly established that for a number of these images, I believe it is now your responsibility to establish that the other images are not in the PD, since your contention has been, at least partially, refuted. Also, you have not answered my question: Are you an agent in any way of the photographer in question, or not? 11:29, 27 February 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beyond My Ken (talk • contribs)

@Beyond My Ken: Re:Yes, I'm quite able to read English — Please try again to read the words coming after This work was originally published anonymously or under a pseudonym before January 1, 1943.... I mean these words: ...and the name of the author did not become known during 50 years after publication. Sealle (talk) 11:48, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I'll repeat the question you've ducked twice already: Do you in any way represent the interests of the photographer in question, Pyotr Otsup? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:31, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh, and just to brush you up on your math -- and your English: the photos were taken in 1918, and the book you cite was published in 1970, which is more than the required 50 years after they were taken. Now, again, are you an agent of the interests of the photographer, attempting to establish these clearly PD images as proprietary? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:35, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

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Deleted: per nomination. --Jcb (talk) 09:36, 3 March 2017 (UTC)